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Art Area: Adam Roach, Alexey Melnikov, Ben Campbell | 2007-Oct-23 —  

IETF-101 httpbis minutes

Session 2018-03-20 1550-1820: Balmoral - Audio stream - httpbis chatroom


IETF101: 20 March 2018 HTTP WG Meeting Minutes

Scribe: Bron Gondwana

Active Drafts

BCP56bis: revision of use of HTTP as a substrate

  • Mark: good progress - more examples, more review required
  • Reviews have been positive - useful outside this group

Bootstrapping Websockets

  • Issue 471: consider using ALPN (currently using Upgrade)

    • Martin Thompson
    • inherent problem with this proposal, don't know that server supports HTTP/2.
    • to use this design, have to choose HTTP/1.1
    • Nick - Akamai
    • is it worth having an H2 w connect ALPN token.
    • response: have resisted bundling options at request time.
    • Bence Béky - Google
    • Chrome has an implementation, rough but seems to work
    • 2 servers: hghttp2 and libwebsockets.
    • server implementors have tested with Chrome, it works
    • 3rd server in dev, doesn't work yet.
    • supports recommendation: no server level ALPN
    • to respond to "in advance" doesn't know server supports h2/websocket. Inclined to send request regardless of response from server - will fail anyway
    • Martin - Mozilla
    • in TLS/1.3 server can send settings first anyway. Temporary problem, not dire
  • Is modifying CONNECT REASONABLE?

    • in every codebase, connect is handled in a different codepath already.
    • alternative: new method rather than CONNECT
    • Mark Nottingham
    • want to make sure that we consciously do this: having a protocol specific setting override standard HTTP method behaviour
    • Julian Reschke
    • what's the process for defining new pseudo headers? H2 spec says we can't define new pseudo headers?
    • answer: 7540 is clear that settings mechanism can override behaviour
    • Martin
    • sending this new pseudo-header in a request to a server you haven't received settings from. Predict: explosions. Whole connection would break, not just the websockets bit.
    • answer: can fix with TLS/1.3 so we know what to send!
    • suggestion: change use of exiting pseudo-headers instead? So only the connect stream would fail.
    • resolution: this is negotiated - negotiations require a round trip
    • there is no solution
    • Alan - Facebook
    • also have this issue
    • Mike Bishop - Akamai
    • currently H2 spec says "if you have an unknown pseudo header, must treat it as a stream error, NOT a connection error"
    • Martin
    • yeah, we kinda screwed up there, but it's OK!

QUESTION to the room: does anyone have any problems with modifying CONNECT? Nope.

Random access and live content - Craig Pratt (remote)

New standard went out last night - not significantly different to previous, mostly editorial.

Q: what's left before last call? * thanks for rattling cages - got feedback. * expected changes in shift buffers - and that's where they happened * one question out there: will answer on mailing list, has clear answer * don't expect to add anything to the draft - Martin - suggest: WGLC now - lots of people have paid attention to it - Mark: 2 weeks should be fine * from Jabber: - Tom Peterson - see question on mailing list about 416 - answer: while server may internally use circular buffer to represent shift buffer, shouldn't be a concept of resetting. - can't internally have a concept of resetting if it's going to be cacheable - Martin Thompson: great answer, don't need to write it down

Secondary Certificates: Mike

Adopted last time. Have merged it. Exported identifiers (TLS group)

Open issue: handling cases where the client wants to offer a cert because it expects the server to want it. How we're using frames on streams that may have already ended. On h2 it's OK, over QUIC doesn't, because it's already gone.

  • Martin Thompson
    • a lot of activity on this in TLS. Until that's resolved, this can't be buttoned down.
    • Mark: happy to let it bubble along while TLS iw working on it.
    • Patrick: important to future of HTTP, so get it on your radar.
  • Ryan Sleevi - Google
    • it's a rethinking of how we think about the TLS crypto
    • one thing not addressed in the draft - it addresses client risk (might want to look at DNS), but doesn't address server risk - the risk a server has of being impersonated.
    • talking to server operators: potentially allows widespread attack if you can obtain a compromised certificate.
    • right now you can use BGP detection, etc. Not possible with secondary certs
  • Erik

    • Risk now: if you can compromise DNS + BGP and a cert, you can attack
    • with this: only need a compromised cert
    • Mark: relaxation of DNS was done with Origin spec
    • Erik: speaking about server's ability to see if there's compromise
    • with this, no way to detect
    • Mark: can you suggest text.
  • CT: works for illegitimate certs

  • but: with stolen cert (server key compromise)
    • can't discover compromise easily with this

Mike: don't have advice for detecting key compromise

  • rotate keys more frequently!

  • Option: add something to certs that say "don't let me be applied used in one of these"

  • ANOTHER POINT: describes a single connection.

    • doesn't handle multiple connections, when one has an existing connection to an origin and another connection claims that same identity. How to select between them?
    • Mike: would be happy to receive some text about it, but generally you might have multiple connections which are valid for another server.
  • Ian - Google

    • would also like the idea of opt-in.
    • different domains have different risk profiles

More to talk about, not going to WGLC any time soon!

Expect-CT: Emily can't be here.

no comments

Header Common Structure - Mark Nottingham

  • Martin Thompson

    • limits are good
    • if you used all of this, then you'd have other problems
  • ?

    • always have the option to extend the spec
    • Mark: push back on this, if you get more than 256 items, hard error
    • point is to have a generic implementation. Don't want to allow override of limits
    • Mark: could define structured-headers-2
  • Roy Fielding

    • not sure that this would do any good
    • we already have guidance on headers, an nobody follows them already
    • who enforces?
    • Mark: parser will raise an error only if over 1024
    • software then needs to check 'only want 5'
  • John Lennox

    • clearly defaults are great
    • ability for specific sub behaviour
    • Mark: could just do a non-common header, or define new common-2
  • Julian Reschke

    • maybe would make sense to think about length limits in a different way than currently.
    • maybe just specify whole size of header field?
    • Mark: want to think about it, make sure assumption is going to hold
  • Jeffery Yaskin

    • Chrome has a prototype already
    • Mark: YAY - shrieked! Patrick insists this is in.
    • currently specified as http list syntax - HTTP spec specifies how to handle multiple headers
  • Brent/Brand?

    • was going to comment in discussion about strings, but:
    • URIs? Common data type, should they have separate representation?
    • suggest: maximum length of string take URI into account

Cache Digests for HTTP/2 - Kazuho Oku

2 open issues (plus 1 editorial issue not covered today)

  • Server indication is per-connection

    • use ORIGIN frame?
  • require clients to cache the info?

    • currently a MAY
  • Patrick

    • ORIGIN - fairly serious deviation from definition
  • Alessandro Ghedini

    • don't think it should be per-origin - it's a per-server thing
  • Mike Bishop

    • main case where you want to spell it out - wildcard subdomains
    • ORIGIN doesn't have wildcard support
    • would need to enumerate all possible domains
  • Mark Nottingham

    • if not caching, ORIGIN makes sense
    • Patrick: didn't envisage that ORIGIN would be just a bunch of settings
    • maybe new frame type would make sense, but how do you cache it?

Explore on the list

  • Hugo
    • just to add to the complexity of this, can conceive of servers which are authoritative for and would like to cache for...
    • Patrick: agreement on this, question is whether ORIGIN is correct approach

Question: + remove etag/stale support? + most URLs the block rendering are long-term cacheable. + proposal: remove stale support

  • Alessandro Ghedini
    • agree that removing would be better
    • complication: if HTTP2 stack is separate from cache. If you don't know etag you would just ignore it anyway

Client Hints

  • ?

    • confused about status and direction
    • seems like "could include ANYTHING" in there, e.g. geolocation
    • Mark: have shied away from adding everything in there - would have security-privacy considerations
    • Second Q: stuff about lifetimes/revocation. "is this how we're going to do permissions?"
  • Martin Thompson

    • don't like lifetime thing, but consider self to be in the minority.
    • got up here to say: changes on slide don't make me happy about security.
    • what made him happy: changes to considerations have made him happier.
    • opposed to geolocation because don't understand how to control that info.
  • Eric

    • consideration 3 cuts in 2 directions. If you can store cookies and javascript, can already shove this data in a cookie! If you can do that, why do we need the header?
    • only difference is for first hit
  • ?

    • Preload scanner - well before javascript executes
    • taken offline

Not going to WGLC terribly soon


No update. Hopefully wind up soonish.

Related Work

Origin-Signed Exchanges: Jeffrey Yasskin, Chromium

  • 10 minutes on presentation - 10 min for discussion!

  • Roy Fielding

    • like the idea, but hate the idea of a 7 day validity window.
    • would prefer to be unbounded
    • ability to sign public documents for a long time overrides value of javascript
  • Lucas

    • Signatures vs Cavage draft
    • no idea how widespread they are in the real world
    • Mark: impression, used by non-browser APIs
  • Eric

    • technical issue: spent time reasoning about security properties, and can't. That makes him uncomfortable!
    • have statically signed object appear in the origin makes uncertain
    • can probably work through for same origin - origin substitution would be bad.
    • To clarify: this working group not adopting
  • Paul van Brouwershaven - GlobalSign

    • OCSP status of certificate and 7 day limit
    • but - Is this seven day period fixed? The CAB forum states that updates should happen at least every four days (max validity of 10 days) but CA's might decide to issue a response with a shorter validity. Remaining duration can also be shorter as result of caching.
    • answer: have had requests to make it both longer and shorter!
    • think: will stop trusting at the shorter of this and cache-control headers
  • ?

    • mentioned more aggressive checking
    • e.g. Javascript can't run, or can't have origin, until signature verified online
    • answer: haven't figured out exactly when browser should verify
  • Nick Doty - UC Berkeley

    • what should server do after they screw up and sign something stateful.
    • should stop signing new ones
    • can use Clear-Site-Data header to clear everything if known to have been attacked.
    • but, if not fetching anything, sure - clients will have to wait 7 days before knowing they have bad data.

Mark: Not considering adopting now, but that might change.

Proposed Work

HTTPtre: Julian Reschke and Roy Fielding

Notion: revise HTTP/1.1 ONE MORE TIME

We have been working in a temporary repo on Github, resurrected the old RFCs, and published six drafts with minimal editorial updates to reflect status:

  • draft-fielding-httpbis-http-messaging-00
  • draft-fielding-httpbis-http-semantics-00
  • draft-fielding-httpbis-http-conditional-00
  • draft-fielding-httpbis-http-range-00
  • draft-fielding-httpbis-http-cache-00
  • draft-fielding-httpbis-http-auth-00

The question is if the WG wants to adopt these documents with intent to revise, possibly consolidate, and publish toward full standard status.

  • Martin Thompson

    • it's our responsibility to maintain documents, not necessarily strive for perfection!
    • might not need to go to full standard
  • Patrick - Chair comment: would like to see this work

  • Mike Bishop

    • as author or semantic layer draft, would love to see it in the spec
    • as HTTP/QUIC would love this too
    • timeline: if we want QUIC docs to be done by the end of this year, this won't be done by the end of the year. Assume don't want to hold HTTP over QUIC, so would be referencing documents that are quickly replaced.
  • Mark:

    • with QUIC hat on, sure
    • but: would like to get this done FAST. Intend to spend a lot of time on this, and want to get it done ASAP. Hopefully this year.
  • Roy Fielding: would be shocked if this isn't done before QUIC.

Show of hands: 15 people willing to work on this!

  • Brad Shorten
    • please, fewer documents
    • nightmare right now

Either 2 documents or 3 documents.

HUM: "if you want working group to take on draft-fielding-httpbis-* and produce fewer documents". Strong hums in support, no hums against.

Plan now is to shift over to BIS repo, rename it, and preserve issues list.

Preserving SNI privacy (yep, again)

  • Erik
    • question about 0-RTT version for *.github.io
    • could get cia.github.io in that case.

Patrick: generally sympathetic with work. ALT-SVC might have some things to say about sni. Not sure if update required.

  • ?

    • is your intent that this is widely deployed, or only for specific clients?
    • A: think alt-svc and DNS could be a performance win, so expect it to be used
    • A: hiding SNI, would be an implementation choice, could cost more
    • Q: issue with SNI, can still have your connection replayed
    • A: ? cover both cases. If you don't get right cert back, then will have to make the second round-trip
  • ?

    • Host header point: SNI check was used to check if cryptographic context, but still using Host header to direct to correct backend.
    • alt-svc will be used first, then will know what other names can be used.
  • Martin Thompson

    • ACME are looking at using SNI for validating ownership of domains
    • this would be a landmine for them.
    • what's the relationship between expiration times and RRSET
    • A: draft says expiration times must match
  • Erik

    • it's OK if SNI and Host header don't match already.

Authors: are you asking us to adopt these drafts? - no outstanding issues - would appreciate adoption

  • Martin Thompson
    • they're not ready (as a speaker for the NO hum)
    • would like to see more discussion on the list



  • Martin Thompson
    • relay from Jabber - Tom Peterson
    • appears spec denormalises or writes off value of quality indicators

about 10 people have read draft

  • Roy Fielding
    • wasn't this already asked on list?
    • A: Got a bunch of responses. Seen

HUM: in favour of adoption, to be confirmed on the list.

Have parked Key - assumption is that this replaces Key. No objections.

Roy Fielding, as co-author of key: no objection

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